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[Brainstorming] 3dAC and Insurgency

 Post subject: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 14:39 
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Hi everyone, I think many of you agree with me when I say that the current Dev team did a great job butchering even more the insurgency gamemode, but I still like its concept and want it to succeed.

My idea, if you guys are up for it, is to make a "letter" to the dev team with the changes we think this game mode needs, but first we need to actually think in these changes.

And with this I launch the challenge, What does insurgency needs to improve its game-play?


Here's a draft on what I was about to post in suggestions, basically states that insurgency needs their civilians again but even more powerful.
=====

200 kills and 50 deaths for the blufor is not uncommon in insurgency maps, with superior optics, weapons and assets, the Blufor side is made to rape the insurgents.


This gamemode needs big changes to become enjoyable and, above all, balanced for both sides.


With such firepower, the only way to create a balanced gamemode is by removing this exact superiority but without actually removing it.
This strategy of removing without actually removing can only be achieved if the blufor players start to fear their own weapons and How can we achieve this?!


Buff the civilians!



Fact is they don’t have a weapon and should be illegal to kill them. Any kill to a civilian should automatically result in a death, no counters or spawn delays.
These insta-deaths would create an environment where  blufor players would be afraid of shooting against anything that moves without really checking if its a legit target.


Although extreme this feature is what insurgency needs:
  • Blufor would need to use their infantry properly instead of the current armor rape fest.
  • Those AR’s that camp hideouts/compounds would now have something to fear.
  • Many caches have limited cover allowing Blufor players to spam nades, mortars or HE shells clearing that way the complex giving no chance to insurgents; This feature would fix that.
  • Crossing empty streets, using SPGs and simply shooting against Blufor could be achieved with walls of civilians.
  • and many more.


Walls of civilians
Many complaint about this, and many were blufor whores, but the fact is not a far fetch to imagining  insurgents firing with hostages in the line of fire, and like any other situation with hostage, the goal should be keeping collateral casualties to a minimum.
The current gameplay butchered any chance of simulating hostages allowing, again, the Blufor rapefest.


Civilians and Mortars
Another discussion was the exploit used by civilians to run towards enemy mortars but is this an exploit? No its not!

This is just the only way that this game can simulate a village full of civilians. Mortars DO collateral damage.

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Last edited by UTurista on 20 Aug 2014, 15:36, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 14:54 
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Good initiative Turista,

basically I agree. Insurgency is pretty fucked at the moment, despite it being one of the things that sets PR apart from other games (in terms of asymmetric warfare). I still enjoy insurgency and prefer playing as the op-for, despite it being a bit like getting fucked in prison.

I think you're on to something with the civis, while something needs to be done, insta death seems a little bit too much. Although I'd be all for something similar. Just thinking out loud, would it be possible to prevent a blue-for player from using any kit for 5 minutes after killing a civi, like we have with the black screen now?

I'd be interested to see what other people think and once we have some solid ideas, I think approaching the devs is an excellent idea.

I might post more when I'm not at work.

Cheers, Murkey.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 16:21 
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Insta-death when killing "civilians"?

The "civilian" mechanics are extremely broken, I'm glad they removed the class (still available with drop-kit but at least it's way less common). "Civilians" deliberately throwing themselves into tracers, grenades and mortars should not lead to punishment of those that killed them. A stray round hits them and they wait 5 minutes to bleed out and get the shooter punished. An insurgent can get hit, drop kit, wait 3 minutes to bleed out, shooter gets punished. It was bad enough getting negative points and increased spawn time with this retardation and you want to add insta-death? The gamemode would just turn into 3/4ths of ins team going "civilian" and BLUFOR soldiers having heart attacks all over the place.

For a start at trying to balance this, remove BLUFOR mortars and have only 1 cache at a time. The rest is up to the map maker to not put caches in mind-blowingly retarded places (hey Basrah, looking at you - although every map has it's share, DEVs should try to play the game once in a while).

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Last edited by Curry-Chicken on 01 Aug 2014, 18:56, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 18:25 
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the only way to "fix" insurgency imo is to completely redo most maps. the current maps offer absolutely no cover for the insurgents.

IRL insurgent forces use tunnels as well as other means of traversing the landscape/city without being spotted. Having insurgents running about in the streets is completely unrealistic and makes no sense at all.

However this is a classic example of "easier said than done". To create maps for the BF2 engine which would allow this would be extremely difficult if not impossible. I'm sorry to say this but although I love the the idea of an insurgency gamemode I do realize that it will never work in PR:BF2.

With that said, 0.97 Insurgency was way better than 1.0 Insurgency. Just putting it out there.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 19:00 
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Well Turistas approach is the better one, if there will be a change it will happen through changes in ROE and game mechanics not by changing maps.

Curry.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 19:10 
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every thing in insurgency being upgraded, changed and added new stuff into.
expect for the maps, they haven't been changed or upgraded at all..

there is the problem!

When they created these maps ( ~ 0.4 - 0.5 ), there was no thermal at all and all the weapons had a long time to aim and to get accurate and infantry walked slower. this was on blue fore sides

While on the insurgents they where a bit faster in every thing, so there was a balance.
that would allow insurgents to use ''HIT AND RUN'' tactics.

My improvement point would this:

Make Blue fore slower because they are wearing all kind of heavy shit
and make Insurgents faster and a better stamina because they wear only a pajama.

This would give insurgents there ''HIT AND RUN'' tactic back.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 20:03 
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I agree insurgency must be fixed. Thanks for highlighting various issues above!

We already have only 1 cache spawning at a time (or..?).

I would like to see this:
- faster insurgents with more stamina (no body armour);
- bring back proper arty IEDs for insurgent sapper;
- civilian class, no kit drop to become civvie (prevents exploits);
- UTurista's punishment for shooting civiliians with modification (instakill the offender, and ENTIRE TEAM gets increased spawn time by 15sec).

I believe these modifications will encourage players on both sides to work together and play the game as intended. Especially the last point will motivate server admins to get rid of non-compliant players in very short time :)

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 22:16 
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First off, very nice thread, i have seen some great ideas here. Here's my own. What about civi cars, nobody talks about them. My issue is that BluFor can destroy every single car without any penality. IRL if they would do that, they would lose the population's trust and most likely lose the war. Also, BluFor can kill cars full of civies without even knowing if they are armed insurgents or not. I can understand for motorcycles but anyone can use a car or even a truck. My suggestions:

1) Make civi cars worth intel points (-10 if points the car destroyed is stationary for 5+ mins)
2) Cars count people inside as civies unless they have a weapon selected
3) if cars come within 100 or 150m radius of BluFor, car is free of all ROE.

I dont know if all of those can be achieved, but it could help the balance INS mode.


As for other ideas, bring back civi kits in limited numbers, change ROE, remove BluFor mortars or restrict it to 1 pit. Also, i agree with the 1 cache thing and maybe reduce it to 4 instead of 5 and finally, rework those maps that have been around forever and that didnt caught up with all those updates.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2014, 22:53 
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xact wrote:
- UTurista's punishment for shooting civiliians with modification (instakill the offender, and ENTIRE TEAM gets increased spawn time by 15sec).

I believe these modifications will encourage players on both sides to work together and play the game as intended. Especially the last point will motivate server admins to get rid of non-compliant players in very short time :)

I still can't understand how people think the gamemode would be playable with this very very VERY bad idea implemented. Read the possible exploits above, most of them you simply can't fix, "civilian" class is broken - you can't fix players behaviour, you're encouraging them to act like retards even more like this.

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 Post subject: Re: 3dAC and Insurgency
PostPosted: 02 Aug 2014, 01:02 
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hotfranc wrote:
1) Make civi cars worth intel points (-10 if points the car destroyed is stationary for 5+ mins)
2) Cars count people inside as civies unless they have a weapon selected
3) if cars come within 100 or 150m radius of BluFor, car is free of all ROE. 

1) Nice feature but wouldn't change gameplay
2) Don't think its possible, I think the engine only allows to see how many people are in the car, not their kits.
3) Don't agree with magic radius, and this is impractical seeing that IRL you can make road blocks but not in PR.



Stealthgato wrote:
xact wrote:
- UTurista's punishment for shooting civiliians with modification (instakill the offender, and ENTIRE TEAM gets increased spawn time by 15sec).

I believe these modifications will encourage players on both sides to work together and play the game as intended. Especially the last point will motivate server admins to get rid of non-compliant players in very short time :)

I still can't understand how people think the gamemode would be playable with this very very VERY bad idea implemented. Read the possible exploits above, most of them you simply can't fix, "civilian" class is broken - you can't fix players behaviour, you're encouraging them to act like retards even more like this.


YOU CAN CHANGE PLAYER's BEHAVIOR. But the blufor players are the one that need to change. They're the one that kill everything that moves, even friendlies.

Yes is retarded to see players running towards the line of fire but in my opinion is even more retarded seeing APCs spamming the cache without any fearing any consequence.
And although asymmetrical, insurgency should be balance.

Maybe my idea is to extreme, but the concept is to create fear within the BLUFOR team. Players should control their triggers, lonewolf ARs should have 5-10 kills and not the current 30-40.

Adding seconds to the team is not fair,  even without trolling, a player could kill several civilians.An alternative could be the cache radius.
For any civilian killed, the maximum distance that the cache's icon could be, would increment by 50m with a limit of  a qarter of the of the map's size. (1Km = 250m, 2km= 500m, 4km = 1km )

==
Meanwhile I'm going to update the OP with the several views.

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